Office etiquette differences UK/Germany

Hi. I work for an international company and have been asked to run a workshop for my german colleagues on how they can better work with their english colleagues who they interface with daily and who perceive them to be abrupt and sometimes rude in emails and telecoms. . Does anyone have any ideas which i could include in my presentation material?. Thanks

Do not start your e-mail with "Hello together"

There is no real UK equivalent (unless you lapse into slang)

Oh the irony!

In our company it's the other way round, the UK staff are downright bloody rude to us in Germany!

Make them do role playing games!

Take them all out to the Ofest and get them all fucking drunk together.

Question ... is all of this communication being done in English? b/c if so, the Germans are already shouldering quite a bit. Am wondering how inspired they'll really feel to be nicey-nice in their mails and messages, if they're feeling strained by the language burden.

Yes all the emails are in english as we are interfacing with the uk office in london which makes it impossible to take them out for a drink Eurovol. All the frankfurt team are german but speak good english it is more the fact that they are too the point in emails, don't ASK but DEMAND things and that doesn't go down well.

There's quite a bit of material on business cultural differences available on the internet. You can get lots of ideas by just doing a few google searches.

Cultural Differences: A Brief European Encounter - HR.com
World Business Culture
GERMAN-AMERICAN INTER-CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AT THE WORKPLACE: A SURVEY - Norbert Hedderich, University of Rhode Island
Bumps and Jolts on the Cultural Road - How To Germany (you could have them read about German business culture from an English perspective and they'll be susprised at how others view them)

I actually agree that it's often the other way around. In my experience, Anglo-Americans view email like TT postings and/or a telephone conversation ... Germans still generally view email as a business letter (I still have some Frankfurt colleagues who either show up in person and/or telephone after sending an email to tell me they've sent an email ... uhhh, okay, I just read it!)

That said, a big issue is German telephone ettiquette (or lack thereof). Having secretaries place calls old-timey (1920s-1950s-style) "please hold for Herr so-and-so" is viewed as incredibly pompous. Also, the course of a normal american telephone conversation would be "Hello, may I please speak with Herr so-and-so? Speaking. Great, my name is Frau whatever with XYZ company, and I'm calling to see if I can arrange a meeting with you, myself and two colleagues on the 29th of June at 15:00 to discuss your possibly doing business with your firm; if you can arrange a laptop and projector, that's be super. Great, it looks like I'm free at that time, I'll arrange for a conference room for four and look forward to seeing you then. Okay, goodbye."

The german version would be what I describe as "Teutonic 20 Questions': "Mmmmmm ... Schmidt. Hello? Mmmmm Schmidt: I'm calling for Herr Dr. Dr. Pompous, who'd really like to get to know you better. Uhhh ... what firm is he with? He is a Doppledoktor with the Firma Whatever. Okay, but what's the topic? Mmmmmm ... surely you know Herr Dr. Dr. Pompous? No, but I guess I can meet with him anyway ... what dates are you proposing? At your convenience, but then I will have to ask him if it fits into his diary. So it's not really at my convenience then, right? Right. Okay, How about 29th of June at 15:00? I'll have to check. Okay, you do that ... how many people will he bring with him. I have no idea. Will he need any AV equipment? I have no idea. Well, have him call me when he knows what he's doing. At which number can you be reached? Uhhh, other than the one you just dialed? Yes. 69 555-1212. Is that 069 55-51-21-2? Well, all out-of-exchange numbers have a "0" in front of them, so the "0" is understood, right ... plus the human brain groups things into a maximum of seven digits, so I thought you'd get it the first time. 0695 55-12-12? Okay forget it, just have him email me at some[dot]guy[at]some[hyphen]firm[dot]de. Some[punkt]guy, some[minus]firmde. No not "minus" ... and it's "firm[dot]de". Sigh ... forget it. Schoenen tag noch ... tschuss!

N.b. that the british style is also a bit offputting to americans: "Is that so-and-so?" as the first line in the conversation is contraindicated ... but one can get used to it, especially if they say "cheers" at the end, which reminds one of drinking :-) Also, the use of "double-twos" and "treble-fours" as opposed to giving a number as one woul write it down linearly is infuriating.

The other big issue is an overreliance on internal telephone system technology and a pathalogical aversion to voicemail. I often have internal German colleagues who say "I've been trying to reach you for weeks, but no one picks up the phone" Best I can tell, they assume that I use that annoying "feature" of "missed calls" on the phone menu or seeing what names pop up in the little display. Anglo-Americans, long used to telemarketers and unsolicted pitches, assume that most telephone calls are the equivalent of email spam, and let them spill over to voicemail and clear them off later. Also, it's a more mobile society where people are used to picking up voicemails remotely ... where one cannot see these 'missed call lists".

Hope that helps.

Thanks Bipa these are great articles.

We've just been through a company merger and the sister company that merged into ours have that DREADUL habit of walking round the building telling people they have sent them an e mail and calling to re confirm.

I find the UK phone callers to be demanding and arrogant to the point of downriht bloody rudeness!.

If the communication is already in English, the UKers have an advantage that the Germans don't.
The language and UK society is SO full of nuances, it's easy to make mistakes.

And the UK (USA?) tradition of being all first names wih everyone and matey is SO frikkin false.

You'll find it difficult to get the Germans to change. In workplaces, the British are polite and friendly in a kind of superficial way in their general dealings with each other. Germans are downright rude or at best stuffy and formal to most people unless they're friends with them. It's a cultural difference.

Mills, what about a list of rough intensity-equivalents for requests?

Something like

"The company highly values your contribution when you're on top of your game, and I'm concerned about how things have been going lately. Do you have ideas on how we can work together to ensure your continued success"

~=

"Sie stehen ganz knapp davor, gekuendigt zu werden, und die Aussichten auf Ihre Rehabilitation sind so gut wie null."

Agreed ... I've personally circulated the "Bumps and jolts" article at work ... the "frontier vs. walled village culture" observation was bang in line with my experience. We're not in the middle ages anymore, so all this compulsive "I am not armed' handshaking crap has to go as well. The circular steering wheel worked better than whatever tillers and yokes people came up with before ... which is why Mercedes today have circular sterring wheels instead of a tiller.

It's not a question of what is better or worse ... it's what works in a global context. Actually, I have a pet theory that the higher levels of sickness-realted absenteeism in Europe has more to do with all the handshaking and kissing than liberal sick leave rules. I secretly wish for a completley Japanese world of non-contact bowing :-)

I completely agree ... but there's nuance here, too.

"Hello, is this Mr. Lastname?" as a first introductory phone call isn't seen as overly formal, but reeks of pulling a name off of a cold call list. Saying "is this Firstname Lastname?" is pretty neutral. Hearing "Hello Firstname", and you figure you have a tosser on the other end of the line.

Maybe we're just a bit more sophisticated as anglo-americans, but the moment to switch from formal address to first name basis develops as organically as when one feels it's okay to hold hands on a date. Only Germans could complicate this into a ritual where one has to ask formal permission as to whether it's allowed to convert from "Sie" to "Du".

When I learned German, we didn't learn "Du" at all ... and when I learned Spanish we didn't learn the "Vosotros" address either ... speaks volumes on priorities, IMHO.

There was a weird situation at Hubby's last workplace. The Manager was on "du" form with a senior techie at a factory that was a customer for many years. Then the techie was hired, and Hubby overheard the Manager telling the guy that he should revert to the formal "Sie" form. Reminds me of highschool, where I was in a class with the Principal's daughter. She had to call her Dad Mr. so-and-so during school.

I was the principal´s daughter. Luckily I was allowed to call him Dad during school hours

Interesting you should mention that, because in modern English, the one and only form we use ('you') was the old formal form (as opposed to the informal nominative 'thou' form). I think the fact that the informal use got phased out and the formal use remained speaks volumes too.

Also funny is to see a pattern how people posting here comment on the apparent differences between UK and Germany. Anyone here ever worked in another office in Europe, perhaps one which is more Latin orientated? I have, and can tell you that differences in UK/DE office etiquette there are, but not so many when you compare other countries in Europe. Office etiquette in the UK in my opinion is also Germanic, as people in England, for example, do normally appreciate punctuality, organisation and efficiency in the same way the Germans do. At least where I have worked. Office humour in the UK is however ubiquitous and unrivaled, though fortunately many Germans appreciate that.

One point to bear in mind when one group is using a foreign / second language (with reference to some examples given here) is that it's as important to have coping structures as to be able to give / get the information itself.

In other words, the participants have to feel as confident about how to (and be able to) ask for things to be repeated / clarified or to check the information given etc as they do in asking for or giving the information / content itself.

Forget a culture workshop. The most effective way is to get these people to meet up face to face, outside of an office. Once people can put a face to a name then people have a much better chance of getting along. It can't be too expensive to cross over the English channel.

I get really uncomfortable when German co-workers snap and lose their temper so easily...aka are rude to me or other colleagues for no reason. It creates such an unpleasant atmosphere. It makes me not want to work at a German company.

I wonder what they are thinking...cause I would never even think of being rude to my co-workers. Have others made the same experience?

We took the German management in a team building exercise on a day cruise on the Rhine. They did not want to speak to each other and just wanted to play cards. Non of them had arranged pick up on return so did not want to drink. The whole day was hard going .I just thought what it would have been like if it was the Brits.
They do not want to think for themselves just do what they are told. I dont mean this in a nasty way but it is the truth of the matter.
We have a very long way to go as it is a complete change of culture. Try explaining 'self supervision'

No wonder outside companies have difficulty.

I have known Germans who have been colleagues for years on end & its still "Sie"...
However there are exceptions: when I moved to Germany I got involved with a gliding club & the first lesson was we all use "Du"... And its really true - if you meet well-known people in the gliding scene such as Hans-Werner Grosse its "du" from the start...


Frankly what is very helpful is to spend a certain amount of time living in another country. That teaches you a lot. Just having a booze-up wont chance much IMHO - maybe just confirm worst suspicions...

Yes.

I think it has to do with a) a sense of entilement and lifetime job security and b) what I call a "no thank-you note" culture that sees no utility in constructive workplace interaction. The concept of generalized reciprocity simply does not exist.

There's a horrible, overpriced little sandwich shop around the corner from my building where I ended up going more frequently than I liked when I was pressed for time. Over the years I'd spent hundreds and hundreds of euros there, and they knew me by sight. The other day the bill came to EUR5.10, and all I had was a five, a 50 and no change. There's a pathetic little tip cup that barely anyone puts anything in, so instead of making the guy break a 50, I fished ten cents out and said 'I'll pay you back next time". The guy went completely nuts and started yelling at me! I put it back, made him break the 50, threw a one euro coin in the cup and said "you just earned 90 cents interest for my having held that 10 cents in my fingers for five seconds ... but it's the last money you'll ever see from me." And he lost a customer.

Situations such as the foregoing happens all the time in the workplace. People appear not to think through the consequences of being complete d*ckheads, or care about them even if they do (great ... one less customer to have to deal with!) ... and then they bitch even more wondering why their international colleagues find them so difficult to deal with and where all the German stereotypes came from.

Lighten up. Smile. Buy a little German flag and wave it around at the football game. Write a thank-you note once in a while. Surprise someone by lending them a book, CD or DVD you think they'll enjoy. Pay a compliment. Tell someone you appreciate their efforts. Help out a younger or older colleague. "Don't b-sharp, don't b-flat, just b-natural."

Crap ... I've planed pretty much exactly that for later this summer as a UK/German all-hands-on-deck (pun intended) exercise for my team 20 brits draining the bar and 30 germans playing cards

Or "flex-time" for that mattter.

Not 'crap' Thats what happened. and who do you think you are taking money however small that did not belong to you. I would have banned you from the shop.

Complete American vs. British English misunderstanding: I was trying to say "Damn ... Johnny Norfolk just related a tale of an unsuccessful event just like the one I was planning."

Thanks for immediately assuming I was impugning your integrity. Sheesh.

It's all about situational appropriateness. Clearly, were this to have been a shop along the autobahn to which I was unlikely to ever return, I would not have have tried that. But this was a place into which I would frequently go ... and I grew up with take a penny, leave a penny trays. Since the place is so overpriced that everything is in 10-cent increments, there were no pennies or even five cent pieces at all, and I figured the "tips" thing was a bit of a joke since it also had rubber bands, paper clips and other crap [EDIT: "miscellaneous items"] in there.

You can only do that in Germany if you've progressed to "du" with the storekeeper.

Instead of targetting the Germans, who are after all doing you a favour by trying to communicate in your mother tongue, which is a foreign language to them, and are less likely to be being deliberately rude than be unaware of the correct phraseology to use in English, might it not be an idea to issue a circular to everyone in the company reminding them how to communicate in e-mails? Unless the English staff are all paragons of politeness, perhaps some of them would find the information useful too and the Germans would be less likely to feel victimised. Then you could stress that it's important to be polite in e-mails, even if the e-mail is short. You could give examples of how to be polite, e.g. greeting the person you're sending the e-mail to, signing off with a salutation (e.g. "regards", "best regards", etc.) and not just your name. You could give examples of how to ask someone politely to do something: e.g. "I would be grateful if you could [do ...].", "Would you mind [doing ...]?", "It would be helpful if you could [do ...]". Before signing off they could say something like "thank you in advance for your help" or "I appreciate your help in this". Then they could also send a thank-you e-mail to the person concerned when they have done what has been asked for.

Although I've noticed that it isn't just the second language thing ... it's a general snarliness.

For instance, yesterday, I received a german language email closed with "Mit verbindlichen Grüßen".

"With mandatory greetings?" Gee whiz ... screw you, too, buddy

I'd interpret "Mit verbindlichen Grüßen" to mean "With kind regards". "Verbindlichsten Dank" means "Thank you kindly".

I would hesitate to piss off a lot of folks with a company-wide "please be more polite" memo when the problem is truly a cultural difference and isn't perceived by management as coming from the English side. Since the OP has been asked by management to do a seminar for the Germans, then that is what the OP should concentrate on doing. Expanding it company-wide could end up involving even more countries with other cultures and languages.

how about language training, rather than cultural training e.g. polite / indirect question forms, levels of register etc. Perhaps the Germans might also appreciate ongoing feedback on the emails they write on a daily basis ... I very much doubt this perceived bluntness is something that can be "fixed" in just one workshop !

I beg to differ.

I think you're confusing it with "Mit Freundlichen Gruessen".

I don't agree with you. I think "verbindlich" here is expressing a positive emotion and not a negative one. I wouldn't interpret it literally to mean "obligatory" here and certainly not as an insult. Just as I wouldn't usually interpret "Dear..." as an expression of devotion or "Yours faithfully" as a sign that the writer is expressing his unending loyalty, I think "Mit verbindlichen Grüssen" is just a polite formulation for ending a letter, perhaps a slightly archaic and therefore less familiar one. But perhaps a German native speaker can clarify this.

Just one example of possible misunderstanding. "Mit verbindlichen Grüßen" is an old, imo archaic, very formal and stiff way of ending a letter. It is rarely used nowadays, except for very official, unemotional or possibly hostile letters like firing somebody, or a letter to the government.

example from an article in Der Spiegel:


an example of a letter to government:


It is very correct and formal, but not really used much in regular correspondence anymore unless the person is a bit hostile and antagonistic, or is ambivalent. Not a positive emotion, but not necessarily negative since it could be supremely neutral. Or the person is older and is simply used to keeping a very formal business style.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why it could be perceived as hostile. According to Duden, it's just another way of ending a business letter:


If someone is perceived as being unfriendly or hostile for using Mit verbindlichen Grüßen instead of Mit freundlichen Grüßen, isn't that a bit like perceiving as insincere someone who signs off a letter as "Yours" instead of "Yours sincerely"?

Well I've been here 25+ years and not see that sign-off on a latter or e-mail...

I also said it could be neutral. <sigh>

As a German speaker, I'm with Lorelei: "Mit verbindlichen Güßen" is a polite, slightly more personal variation of the standard "Mit freundlichen Grüßen" which often isn't to be taken literally anyway (you can be on very unfriendly terms and still use this greeting). It isn't outdated (Karajan probably used it with an ironic intention). "Hochachtungsvoll" is rarely used anymore.

Verbindlich can mean mandatory, but also friendly, obliging, accommodating. In German, you would say "Sie hat eine verbindliche Art" for "She is forthcoming, obliging, etc."

With verbindlich, a German speaker associates some kind of a positive connection (Verbindung). You also say: "Ich wäre Ihnen sehr verbunden, ..." when asking for a favour or "Ich bin Ihnen sehr zu Dank verbunden" to express gratitude.

Re the OP's question: In your workshop, you could focus on potentially conflictive situations (and use role plays, as someone suggested), where the German co-worker needs to be assertive without being impolite. That is really difficult for native German speakers, as we tend to be more direct in these situations, in order to be taken seriously. For example, when you think that there has been an error on the interlocutor's part, in German we would simply say so, in a British environment, it is probably better to put it into a question like: Are you sure you checked ...?

Could the OP do me a favour and address the use of that stupid affirmation guesture in meetings where they knock on the table.

It's like being a cast extra in the Student Prince sometimes

Even worse: you are sat somewhere eating & some bloke (OK colleague) comes in, shouts MAHLZEIT & bangs on the table...

LOL @ Kommentarlos! That was xFIL's claim to fame ... you made me laugh.

I think that's one of the things we just have to adapt to, go along with. Who says it's stupider than clapping? (esp. after landing ...) That said, "Mahlzeit" as a greeting doesn't quite glide over my lips yet, even on longer projects where I hear it every day. Have tried responding with "mal Zeit, mal keine Zeit!" or "ja, gesegnete Mahlzeit."

Even among native speakers, there can be plenty of misunderstanding. Anglos generally do tend to check whether that's the case before going snarky; Germans are often more likely to immediately presume difference of opinion and start doling out consequences. Plenty of exceptions to those generalisations;anyone here could readily point to illustrations right here on TT.

I was in our Duesseldorf office the other week with an English colleague (who lives there) & he would shout "Meal Time" on walking past the receptionist... He thinks he was taking the Michael...

Mahlzeit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PAaqr9ZoZw

RainyDays, your post was genuinely helpful.

Vielen Dank.

Mit freundlichen Grussen,
Expaticus

I have my own "Mahlzeit" routine at work.

I must admit I became a bit less arch about it when I learned that the origin of this custom involved post-war starvation, where the wish was supposedly along the lines of 'I hope you find something to eat".

That kinda crushed me emotionally.

Gern geschehen!

For what it's worth, I have always found my German colleagues more straightforward than the British ones. It took a while to get used to the directness, but I realised that they weren't being rude and it was just their way. There also seems to be less backbiting and fakeness among the Germans (at those I have worked with) than the English speakers. The Germans seem to make a clearer division between work time and leisure time, not necessarily expecting to socialise as a group outside work. That's been my experience, at least.

I work in a supposed international environment and all I have to say is that the Germans need to get more open-minded, loosen up a bit and start to realise that cultural differences in tone of voice, actions and reactions and work standards and expectations really do exist. There is no "one size fits all" model.

Especially true in an international school. If you want to work there, get with it.