Have you taken a loan in Germany since 2011?

52 posts in this topic

Posted

Starshollow,

Thanks once again on behalf of the TT Collective for more free and useful advice.

Does that only apply to personal loans, or are car loans and mortgages also included?

All the Best.

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Posted

Griogarach: tks for the kind words, but this is what I consider to be my "job-description", to look out for the better good of Expats (especially but not limited to my clients). this all stems from my own experience of being an Expat abroad in the past myself, knowing how vulnerable one can be in a different, not to say: hostile, environment. so you could say, it comes with the territory...

Car loans would certainly fall in the same category. Mortgages were not mentioned in the BGH-info. I have discussed this with other experts online and most agree that any additional fees and costs - maybe, but just maybe, even costs for the evaluation of a property - would have to be considered to be likewise. Because the logic of the court, i.e. the costs were demanded for something that any bank would have to do by their own best interest before deciding on a loan/mortage anyway and if there are costs, they have to be part of the interest computation rather than extra-outside fees, would apply here too.

When you have incurred such costs in recent years, perhaps contact the lawyer mentioned in the article - he seems to be specialized on this kind of issue and can probably help you fastest and best.

Cheerio

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Posted

So, now that the Musterbriefe are online, can people start putting in claims now?

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Posted

@Starshallow: Many thanks for the information.

I took a personal loan from Targo bank in 2012. I have paid off the loan amount in full.

Am i still eligible to claim this fees portion back? If yes, what should i look for in my contract. My German is not so fluent. If would you tell me what terms to look for, i shall act upon your info.

Thanks again.

BR

Rad

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Posted

So, now that the Musterbriefe are online, can people start putting in claims now?

I would wait til the decision from the BGH is final and published. Can't be long. Where did you find the "Musterbriefe" btw? Care to post a link/URL here for the others?

@Starshallow: Many thanks for the information.

I took a personal loan from Targo bank in 2012. I have paid off the loan amount in full.

Am i still eligible to claim this fees portion back? If yes, what should i look for in my contract. My German is not so fluent. If would you tell me what terms to look for, i shall act upon your info.

Thanks again.

BR

Rad

Whether you are still paying back or have alreay paid back the loan is irrelevant with regards to the reclaiming of the fee. What you need to check in your loan contract is, if a fee in EUR was either added to the total loan or deducted from the loan and thus paid by you. I would assume, since TARGO bank was mentioned, that they had some standard contract form with Ts&Cs which demanded this fee and therefore you'll be eligible to get this money back. When in doubt, contact the lawyer mentioned in the article I quoted.

Cheerio

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Posted

I just noticed: the BGH has issued the verdicts and they are already published ( BGH, Urteil vom 13.05.2014 – XI ZR 405/12 )

Therefore it is now valid and you can act upon it.

The VErbraucherzentrale-offices around Germany appear to offer a draft for a letter demanding your money back from the bank (Musterbrief - probably what was meant above).

See here for details or check with your local Verbraucherzentrale: http://www.vz-nrw.de/bearbeitungsentgelte-2

If you are unsure if and what kind/amounts of fees you had to pay for your loan and if they can be reclaimed, contact your local Verbraucherzentral. For a usually small fee they will check your old contract for you and can thus inform/advise you.

Interesting: the VBZs think, that the 3-year laps of time rule does not apply here but rather that if people only learn about this now, even contracts from the last 10 years could fall under the claims for reimbursment during the next 3 years (i.e. the laps of time starts when the clients learn about the illegality of the fee for the first time now in the media). this has not been tested yet in a court, tough. But if your loan is from before January 2011, it would still be worth trying (but then definitly with the help of the VBZ or a specialized lawyer).

Cheerio

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Posted

Where did you find the "Musterbriefe" btw? Care to post a link/URL here for the others?

Musterbrief

I used this one and sent to Santander (robbing barstewards). I'm keeping an eye out on developments for older contracts before acting.

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Posted

Not an expert, but just saw Gebraucherschutz guy from NRW say that (unless you did something special between times) claims are likely to be valid (i.e. not expired) for fees paid after 1 Jan 2011.

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Posted

Thanks for the reply. Appreciate all the inputs you all have provided.

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Posted

How do you mean "something special between times", Gwaptiva?

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Posted

Like "write a formal letter of complaint", "sued", or something that would negate/restart the Verjährungsfrist (statute of limitation).

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Posted

[adminmerge][/adminmerge]

Sounds familiar?

„Bearbeitungsentgelt einmalig 1%“

or

„Bearbeitungsentgelt xy EUR

Das Bearbeitungsentgelt wird für die Kapitalüberlassung geschuldet. Das Entgelt wird mitfinanziert und ist Bestandteil des Kreditnennbetrages. Es wird bei der Auszahlung des Darlehens oder eines ersten Darlehensbetrages fällig und in voller Höhe einbehalten.“

In two rulings the Federal Civil Court (BGH) has upheld rulings of lower courts declaring for null and void a wide spread practice of banking institutions when they hand out consumer credits sending shivers down their spine.

Here the banks usually present the consumer with a special price tag for “service fee” or “processing fees” (“Bearbeitungsentgelt”) as part of the overall costs for providing the credit.

The Court confirmed that this practice is conflicting with provisions of the Civil Code that prohibit unreasonable terms and conditions. The law dealing with consumer credits does not provide for such a fee and requires the banks themselves to bear the costs that go along with issuing a loan or credit.

BGH, dated 13. 5. 2014 – XI ZR 405/12 and XI ZR 170/13

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Posted

Sounds familiar?

Actually, now that you mention it, it does.

Almost like it was yesterday.

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Posted

Hallo,

I have taken personal loan from post bank and also from bhw via post bank.

They have charged me some money which is a lot higher than the interest that i paid. Can i claim from postbank as well as from bhw?

thank you in advance

basbrem

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Posted

That depends on why they charged it and when.

If it was for the processing fee (Bearbeitungsgebühr) described in this thread, and for a loan taken out in 2011 or later, then yes.

If not, then probably not.

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Posted

Thanks a lot for the information! I had a loan with Targobank and I'll be sending off the template letter immediately. Note that the test.de version linked by Kazalphaville includes a demand for punitive 5% interest over base rate while the Verbraucherzentrale one does not.

Having written that - in my case the fee was added to the balance of the loan, so I've been paying them interest at 6.6% from the start. Shouldn't I ask for that back?

The Bearbeitungsgebühr did leave a sour taste at the time, since the front-loading of the interest effectively penalised early payment, which I was hoping to be able do. Let me rant about them some more:

- loan insurance. They initially sold me this by telling me it was 'erforderlich' which at least to my non-native German implied to me at the time (and still now) that it was a condition of the offer; and also, I think intentionally, leaving me with the impression that the contributions were included in the quoted total interest rate. Cancelled in cooling-off period once I got my head round things.

- further sales attempts at every contact

- barrage of junk mail offering more credit, the most obnoxious of which would have made some extra small sum available but (if I understood correctly) jacked up the interest on the entirety of my outstanding loan by about a factor of 2.

I'm paying off the last instalment next month, will most certainly never deal with them again and very satisfied for the chance to get something back.

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Posted

Hallo El Jeffo,

I think it is Bearbeitungsgebühr. But i will have a look at all my contracts after 2011 and will get back to bhw or postbank.

Thx for the info.

Basbrem

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Posted

Does this apply to Bausparkontos too??

With Deutsche Bank I have opened a Bausparkonto where they applied a Bearbeitungskosten and a Darlehensauszahlung where they applied a Bereitstellungsprovision. Are these fees a Bearbeitungsgebühr?

If yes, should I try to claim them back by filling this module and sending it to the bank?

Thank you very much!

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Posted

Starshallow,

Have sent a message to you...please read when you get a minute...

Many thanks

Karen

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Posted

Any update on the status of this action against the banks? Did anyone receive a refund yet?

After reading many articles about this, I still didn't understand if this case applies to Bausparkontos too??

Thank you

Vladislav

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Posted

Starshollow,

Thanks for the info. But is it possible that the bank ask us to repay the remaining amount in one go if we ask for the processing fees back? Coz my credit is due in Feb 2015 and If I ask processing fees back are there any problems associated with the credit?

Thanks.

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Posted

But is it possible that the bank ask us to repay the remaining amount in one go if we ask for the processing fees back? Coz my credit is due in Feb 2015 and If I ask processing fees back are there any problems associated with the credit?

That's the point: If you ask the bank to pay back the fees you break with the bank.

I think if you simply ask to get back the fees the bank has no reason to cancel the credit agreement so that you in my opinion never will have to pay the remaining amount in full.

But the bank will never again make a business with you because of the bank knows that your sign under an agreement has the same value as a piece of moskito shit: The bank has a high risk that you will fight against the next written agreement also!

So my suggestion is:

Be careful to fight against the bank. If the credit ist paid back in full, and if you need nothing more from the bank, than you may fight against the bank to get your fees back.

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Posted

Thanks for this info. My husband had a terrible loan with Commerce Bank in 2011. He paid for six months a high amount and it didn't even really touch the principle. I have no idea how he could have paid thousands of euros and only have reduced the principle by a few hundred. He did, however, decide to get a better loan from another bank and paid it off in full to avoid further issues. When I just mentioned this to him, he found there was a fee and we are going to try and get that back. Luckily we have no business with this bank and had already decided never to do so again anyway. I will try to remember to update this thread if his demands are successful.

It could not have come at a better time. This bit of money would make a big difference. I know it won't come back immediately, but at all would be such a blessing. So, thank you for this chance Starshallow. We aren't counting the money yet, but to know there is a small chance adds a bright spot to a couple of hard days for us.

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Posted

Be prepared for a long wait. We called our ex-bank a couple of weeks ago and they had already had 3 weeks to process our claim by that point. They told us the usual, "It's in the system." So God knows how much longer. Peeved to say the least, as I'm leaving Germany in 3 weeks' time.

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