Countering a court order for someone else's debt

93 posts in this topic

Posted

(You can change that topic title, I'm not sure how to word it)

 

I have been living with a girl for the past 15 months, she moved in with me. Prior to that, she had accumulated approximately €3,000 in debt with various contract defaults and whatever. I really didn't concern myself about it, I figured it was her debt, her problem, they can bother her about it, I had nothing at all to do with it.

 

Well, about an hour ago, some personnel from the court showed up at my door with a Vollstreckungsbescheid (or something similiar) and asked about when he'd be able to collect any payments. I flatly told him that I was her boyfriend, not her husband, her finances are something that he needed to speak to her about. He asked me about my relationship with her, and I did confirm that we were in a relationship, shared things together, and slept together. He later asked me if could come in and see if she had anything of monetary value. At first I refused, but he stated that he could easily come back with a warrant and two police officers, and it would cost her even more money. I let him in, stating it was a waste of time because all she moved in with was her clothes and some furniture, everything else was mine.

 

He then began writing on his pad stating that he would be confiscating MY 50" screen plasma television, my handy that I had paid €450 for not even 2 months ago, my laptop computer, and my Xbox 360. I literally got into his face and screamed that that stuff was MINE (with receipts to prove that I had purchased most of it long before she'd even moved in) and he'd better prepare for a throw-down if he seriously thought he was going to take my stuff to settle a debt of someone that I am not legally married to. He told me that it didn't matter if we were not legally married, if we were sharing living arrangements in a platonic relationship, then I could share the debt with her as well...then he proceeded to ask me if I had a bank account in Mainz and how much money I made a month. I told him it was none of his business and to get out of my apartment. He did leave, but warned me on the way out that he was applying for a warrant to seize my property as well as the money in my bank account.

 

Somebody has got to have some piece of advice to combat this, I should not be held responsible for somebody else's debt just because we're in a relationship. I would understand if we were married, everything we would have would be jointly owned and therefore subject to seizure...

 

...but if a court will not hear a property dispute between two people who were never married before or can't get family insurance plans together or whatnot, then what sense does it make to paradoxically say "But if your other half owes money to someone else, THEN everything you have is jointly owned! Hand it over, pal!" This defies anything beyond belief, I thought it was her debt, HER problem!!!

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Posted

If you can prove they are your goods with redeipts then they cannot touch you.I helped out my neighbour when a county court baliff turned up trying to collect debts that were 4 years old.I asked them to leave as cebts that are older than 3 years cannot be legally touched again.He elft muttering something about clever arses Klugscheisse and she never heard anything of it again

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Posted

 

He later asked me if could come in and see if she had anything of monetary value. At first I refused,

Correct. No one can come in without a warrant.

 

 

but he stated that he could easily come back with a warrant and two police officers, and it would cost her even more money. I let him in

You fucking idiot.

 

Seriously. They have no claim against you, they have no right to entry. They have no right to waste your time. They have no right to talk to you about her affairs. But you're a sucker.

 

You do NOT need any receipts. THEY have to prove that anything is hers, otherwise it's yours, as evidenced by it being in YOUR possession in YOUR apartment.

 

 

He told me that it didn't matter if we were not legally married, if we were sharing living arrangements in a platonic relationship, then I could share the debt with her as well

You tell him to put it in writing and either get a court to authorise it or fold it up and insert that origami buttplug as he best sees fit.

 

 

He did leave, but warned me on the way out that he was applying for a warrant to seize my property as well as the money in my bank account.

Tell him you will have no more verbal contact with him. Anything he has to say must be put in writing for your lawyer.

 

If he comes back, get a fucking lawyer.

 

You're being a chump and if you'd read your own writing you'd see that.

 

woof.

-6

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Posted

From your own text: Zwar ist der Schuldner nicht verpflichtet, dem Gerichtsvollzieher die Tür zu öffnen und ihn in die Räumlichkeiten zu lassen.

 

No warrant, no entry. Period. A vampire can only come in when invited...

 

Any attempt to get a warrant can be met with a demand to show cause. Our Hero here is being bullied by a Gerichtsvollstrecker who knows this guy is a forinjer unaware of his rights. If the GV comes in with a warrant, he'll be accompanied by cops who will likely prevent (or at least bear witness to) any illegal action, demand, claim or otherwise made or carried out by the GV.

 

No warrant, no entry.

 

 

So full of wrong and you still call him an idiot.

We've already covered your less-than-encyclopædic knowledge of German jurisprudence.

 

woof.

-2

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Posted

 

...this guy is a forinjer unaware of his rights.

 

Is that a chump in your book? Personally I think that is a rather harsh way of expressing it. It is forgiveable, I would have thought, to react the way the OP did in those... unusual... circumstances. The GV sounds like he is in the wrong job. Word of advice to the OP, always get the name of the idiots talking at you.

-1

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Posted

 

 

 

Is that a chump in your book?

Just someone being played for one, hence my strongly worded advice which is mostly concurrent with sarabyrd's, someone to whom I generally defer on matters legal with the exception as I explained above. But I'm more likely than many to go to the mattresses. Because if I make them go through the legal channels, chance are I know my rights and their limitations and they stop trying to intimidate. Games over.

 

woof.

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Posted

 

There is a lot of, lets call it bullshit, beeing posted in here in it's hard to addresse everything, but here it goes:

 

You don't share the debt. That wouldn't even be the case if you were married.

 

He can't seize your bank account. That can only be done by a court. He could put "a hold" on an account in order to give the creditor time to apply for a court order. However, as you are not the debtor he can't do that either.

 

Yes they can, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership to seize assets. If assets are in custody and under control of the debtor he can seize them, so if those valuables are in her living space, tough shit.

 

That 3 years thing is missleading too. A bailiff does not appear out of thin air. He has a court order/a titel to enforce. Those are on a 30 years statue of limitation and even those 30 years start over every time the debtor tries to legally enforce them.

 

Yes they have and they can enforce that right through a warrant.

 

No they don't. He has to prove that he is the owner. As posted above, the bailiff does not have to determine ownership, "Gewahrsam" is enough (§808 ZPO). It's a joint apartment, she is living there as well, so she has custody and control over those things. If the bailiff seizes his stuff, he has to file a claim under § 771 ZPO (Drittwiderspruchsklage). If it comes to that, he should talk to the creditor first though.

 

If she is living there, getting the warrant is a formality. The cops, if he even brings them, won't do shit. They are there to help him getting into the apartment and that's it. They are not trained in civil legal matters and have no say as to what the bailiff can or can not seize anyway.

 

Seriously, if the gerichtsvollzieher's job is to collect the debt and dispense it to those who were owed, then why the hell was he in my apartment spinning bullshit to get the money whether it came from my girlfriend or myself??? What's in it for him? I would think that the court would relay the message back to the plaintiff that they were unable to collect any funds or anything of monetary value. What is with the overzealousness of the court personnel? Does he gain a percentage of anything seized and auctioned, or any cash collected?

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Posted

The bailiff is simply a man or woman with a job, largely commission based, paid by results. He'll say anything to get goods or money to the value of the claim so he can get his commission and let a court subsequently sort out the mess. Very little of anything he says needs to stand up in court, especially if there is no witness to him saying it, so if he can frighten you into handing over what he wants then his job is largely done.

 

Bailiffs are often nasty little shits, but it's a nasty shit job too, so if the cap fits...

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Posted

He is (currently) not comission based and not paid by results.

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Posted

To get a warrant (§ 758a ZPO) for entering the apartment is just a formality for the bailiff.

 

It does get more difficult when it comes to the question which objects he may claim. There is an assumption in law (§§ 1362 BGB, 739 ZPO) that objects that are found in the joint apartment of married spouses or those who live as partners according to the Lebenspartnerschaftsgesetz do belong to the debtor. However, this assumption is not valid for those who just live together. The Bundesgerichtshof has explicitly rejected the extension of the assumption of ownership according to § 1362 BGB to unmarried couples. The bailiff is therefore not entitled to assume that objects found in the OP's flat belong to the OP's girlfriend just because she happens to live there at the moment, particularly so as the OP has lived there alone until recently.

Yet, once the bailiff has claimed the things (rightly or wrongly) the OP will have the hassle and expense to get them back. I therefore suggest that he consults a lawyer to prevent any execution of titles against his property in the first place.

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Posted

I don't know, is it only me who react on:

"I have been living with a girl for the past 15 months"

"I really didn't concern myself about it, I figured it was her debt, her problem, they can bother her about it, I had nothing at all to do with it."

"I thought it was her debt, HER problem!!!"

 

So, you're living with a girl but you have "nothing at all" to do with her problems? Not much love there...

 

Your girlfriend is obviously not perfect, having collected these debts, but I think your behavior is very immature. You should really help her to sort this out, e.g. by fixing a payment plan.

 

What's next? She gets hit by a car because she didn't see the red light - her fault, her problem, you don't care?

 

If you don't care about her, maybe you should break the relationship? If you want her to stay you should help her to fix this NOW. It won't get better by itself and she is obviously not capable of fixing it.

The bailiff is just a symptom...

-5

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