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Religion und Mythologie

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Posted

As this is a keystone to his work I would like as much input as possible..translating this to English (from Famous German translator, Heinrich Brugsch)

1. Die zahlreichen Gottheiten Und göttlichen Wesen, mit welchen

die vornehmsten und gebildetsten Völker des Alterthumes Himmel,

Erde und Unterwelt erfüllten und in welchen sie die Schöpfer der

Welt und die Leiter Und Erhalter der Weltordnung verehrten, die

Sagen und Fabeln, welche ein frommer Glaube an die Namen derselben

knüpfte, enthalten in ihrer Gesammtheit bis zu ihrer spätesten

Entwickelung hin den reichen in den vergangenen wie in den gegenwärtigen

Zeiten viel behandelten Stoff und Gegenstand einer besonderen

Wissenschaft, welche unter der allgemeinen Bezeichnung:

Mythologie verstanden wird.

Kind regards

Richard

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Posted

Welcome to Toytown blavatsky3

Die zahlreichen Gottheiten Und göttlichen Wesen, mit welchen

die vornehmsten und gebildetsten Völker des Alterthumes Himmel,

Erde und Unterwelt erfüllten und in welchen sie die Schöpfer der

Welt und die Leiter Und Erhalter der Weltordnung verehrten, die

Sagen und Fabeln, welche ein frommer Glaube an die Namen derselben

knüpfte, enthalten in ihrer Gesammtheit bis zu ihrer spätesten

Entwickelung hin den reichen in den vergangenen wie in den gegenwärtigen

Zeiten viel behandelten Stoff und Gegenstand einer besonderen

Wissenschaft, welche unter der allgemeinen Bezeichnung:

Mythologie verstanden wird.

Aha! The 'simple sentence construction' typical of a German academic.

OK, as a fellow 'Lionheart', and because you asked for as much input as possible, I'll have a pop at that for you.

Be warned, however, that I'm a motor mechanic by trade and not a translator per se.

If you're lucky some of our better qualified TTers may find time to offer their improvements on my interpretation.

The numerous gods and divine beings with which the noblest and most educated peoples of antiquity populated Heaven, the Earth and the Underworld, and which they worshiped (or honoured) as creators of the world and director and holder of the world order, the legends and myths which obliged (bound, or tied, to) a devout belief in the same name, including in their totality up to its latest evolution, the riches in the past as in contemporary times much treated material and the subject of a special science which is understood by the general title: Mythology.

HTH

2B

ETA: Thanks for reminding me of Heinrich Brugsch, who must have lived through a fascinating period in the study of Egyptology. I just found a link to My Life and My Travels, his (Berlin 1894) autobiography in an online 1992 English translation.

2nd ETA: Reading my translation from a distance I'd like to tinker around with it myself now, but am resisting the urge. If it were my own text I would have changed the punctuation at least, but only for the sake of modern English clarity.

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Posted

Thanks 2B orNot2B,

This is the section I am having a need for better clarity...

" the legends and myths which obliged (bound, or tied, to) a devout belief in the same name, including in their totality up to its latest evolution, the riches in the past as in contemporary times much treated material and "

It seems we are looking at a gem through glass darkly...at least that is how it feels to me still.

It just does not 'click' for me...

I like your reference to the already translated text of Brugsch.

Strange that you should mention

OK, as a fellow 'Lionheart', ...can you elaborate? ( Some people that have known me have actually called me a "Lion-Heart" ) I am guessing it is the reference to HP Blavatsky...

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Posted

You're welcome Australia <in keeping with your pre-edit,

You are guessing wrong in my case. (You made me check, but I found no reference to Lionheart under HP Blavatsky).

How is it zat you are not knowing zees Lowenherz story? :blink:

Richard meet Richard. My mother was, when about to give up after nearly 14 hours labour, ordered by one of 3 attending professors to name me accordingly. He told her (very sternly) that she had no right to quit the struggle as the fact that my pre-natal heart kept restarting showed that I was a fighter with such* a heart.

*Lionheart (English) or Lowenherz (German) are translations of Coeur de Lion, the French nom de guerre, which became universally adopted as his title of honour when it was awarded (probably by the Pope?) to King Richard I of England (1157 - 1199, reigned 1189 - 99) as a result of his fighting prowess and courage in battle when facing the impressive forces of Saladin during the Crusades. He was the one who was kidnapped for ransom during his return through Europe and whose evil brother John (boss of the Sheriff of Nottingham and nemesis of Robin Hood) attempted to usurp him. German speakers call him Richard Lowenherz, French speakers Richard Coeur de Lion and, (like some people who have known you and I), English speakers refer to Richard the Lionheart.

Zuruck zum Thema Brugsch:

You need to recognise that, (IMHO, according to the intent of the original author), the section you quoted is not separable (ie. it's not a stand-alone segment) from the rest of the passage. In trying to explain that excerpt alone I would probably confuse myself. Instead of trying that I'm going to repeat the complete text adding my own interpretation of it. I'll attempt to paraphrase it for clarification, but won't break it down in shorter sentences as I believe Brugsch 'simply' intended to write an academically acceptable enveloping definition of the word Mythology

The numerous gods and divine beings with which the noblest and most educated peoples of antiquity populated Heaven, the Earth and the Underworld, and which they worshiped (or honoured) as creators of the world and director and holder of the world order, the legends and myths which obliged to (were bound, or tied, to) a devout belief in the same name, including in their totality up to its latest evolution, the riches in the past as in contemporary times much treated material and the subject of a special science which is understood by the general title: Mythology.

NB: the ,now non-italicised, bracketed words in that passage are my own suggestions as alternate wording.

According to Brugsch; Mythology is defined as being a special science encompassing the study of all of the wealth of artifacts and material in totality which have existed since ancient times and until the present and are tied to devout belief in the name of (any or all of) the numerous gods and divine beings held in myths and legends by the most learned and noble ancient peoples to have directed, or held the balance of, the world order and dwelt in heaven on earth or in the underworld.

That seems easier to follow to my uneducated eye. Hope it makes more sense to you too now.

2B

ETA: You've piqued my curiosity as to your interest in, or need for, this precise translated passage.

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Posted

Thanks 2B orNot2B,

Touché Richard,

Nice to meet another Lion-Heart.

Thanks for the dossier on Lion-Heart it is nice to be refreshed with the roots of our history from time-to-time.

Your explanation at the end helps to round things off nicely for me.

As to the need for the translation... I often get notions to attempt the 'impossible' ... like translating a 700 page German fraktur script [using Tesseract-OCR 3.02 and Viet-OCR windows front end GUI] into

English because I am so moved by this soul's 'inner sight' (viz 'Die Muse in Teheran' [German]). I adore his resolve to translate the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone.

Our Education system may later be looked upon as a filtering system if we hold back certain works.

Time may cause me to modify this perception [of Brugsch] but for now I feel the need to do this

until somebody more gifted in translation does the work.

Unfortunately, many of Brugsh's German and French Texts have yet to be translated into English.

Besides Egyptian Hieroglyphs, I also have a fond interest in all things 'Queen Hatshepsut' but I digress now.

Cheers

Richard

I am a proponent of FREEDOM OF SPEECH so long as it does not cause harm.

I wonder if 'same name' could be substituted with 'One God' or 'Unifying Deity' ???

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Posted

In the name of the namesake?? :unsure: Heilige Namensvetter!!

I don't think 'One God' or 'Unifying Deity' are suitable substitutes, as the 'Brugschische' definition appears intended to incorporate ALL gods and divine beings. I see why you may be saying that, but that's probably due to an imprecision on my part when translating the original phrasing. The phrasing "devout belief in the same name " in my first translation seems to me now to have allowed you to overlook the implied universal plurality in Brugsch's original text.

On revision; "ein frommer Glaube an die Namen derselben " would, I believe, have been better translated as "a devout belief in the names of the same".

Btw, I remember an Aussie, who I shared the driving of an ex-British army Bedford desert tourist trekker with, telling our passengers with a straight face, "This is the first of many temples we will be visiting which were established in honour of the Pharoe Hadacheapsuit." :D

2B

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Posted

Hi, 2B

I think Brugsch may have been a diplomat when it came to promoting Egyptology as a science of religion so to speak.

The term 'cat on a hot tin roof' comes to mind ....meaning not wanting to make too much noise while manoeuvring over

a 'hot topic' with its many critrics.

I don't personally see much difference between the idea of one god or many gods, that area seems 'grey' to me.

More important to me and central to Brugsch's idea of mythology is the idea of 'oneness' (same name)

I see Brugsch's definition of mythology as trying to forward the notion that it is all about a common unifying identity (same name)

in religion and spirituality.

So, to me, Brugsch has been very diplomatic in how he has worded this 'hot topic'

Rightly so, Brugsch seems to have pulled it off to his credit.

I still think your "implied universal plurality" is more concise as an interpretation though, in light of what I have mentioned above.

BYAM - I will not be buying any cheap suits anywhere soon. NICE!

It sounds like you had fun though...

Merry Christmas, To you and your family

Bye for now ( BTW - someone, a French Doctor once mentioned in a Lecture at the Blavatsky Lodge of the Theosophical Society in Sydney Australia

in the early 1990's I believe... that 'Bye' is an abbreviation for 'God be with ye' food for thought)

His name escapes me, I hate it when it does that... He was from Lyon I believe, a student of Life and of Truth, he had many interesting stories to relate... what was his name? ... Yves something... I found it.. Dr. Yves Marcel. ... got that eureka feeling now..

Now that brings back some wonderful memories having met this enlightened soul.

He also mentioned that "Mac" as in Mac Donald, meant Brother

I like comparative Religion too, The Celtic Book, The Book of Kells and the stories of Saint Columba (Columba being the Latin for Dove which in Hebrew language is Iona which also means Dove)

has the symbols of the 4 evangelists.. the man, the lion, the ox and the eagle...

much like the 4 'gate keepers' on the blue lotus the man, the lion, the beast (ox) and the eagle an the 4-in-1 of the Rosicrucians.

Life is an adventure ... isn't it? !

If you have anything to share you can email me..

Email me

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Posted

This is my translation...

" The numerous Gods and divine beings, with which

the noblest and most educated peoples of Antiquity populated the Heavens,

Earth and Underworld, and which they worshiped as Creators of the

World, and Leaders and Delegates of the World Order, those

Legends and myths, which being bound by a pious belief in the same Name/s,

encompass in their totality up to its latest evolution, the riches

in the past as in contemporary times and which is material well covered and the basis of a special Science,

that comes under the general title

recognised as : Mythology ".

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