Der Papa or plain Papa

41 posts in this topic

Posted

I hear so often people talking about der papa or die mama or der Peter. For example today I heard "Wo ist der Papa?" Is it wrong to just say "Wo ist Papa?"

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Posted

No, there is no need to add an article to a person . Wo ist Papa, Mama, Peter. Given that the person you ask this question has no doubt whom you mean.

Wo ist die Mama von Peter? Here you and the one you ask know (by name ) who Peter is but you don't necessarily know in person the mum of Peter-hence an article.

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Posted

Thanks. The fewer words the more I like it. :)

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Posted

You'll be understood even if you leave it out, but it is very common to put it in. Just depends how German you want to sound.

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Posted

When it comes to personal names, the article will generally be used much more frequently by people coming form central-southern Germany (almost always by southern germans or swiss people, when referring to someone they know).

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Posted

The usage of articles + first names or Mama, Papa, Oma, Opa in lieu of proper names is colloquial, with slight regional differences in frequency, I would say. Then, there's also the phenomenon in some dialects, namely Rheinfränkisch and Moselfränkisch vernaculars, to use the neutral article with female first names, see discussion here. One can hear in those regions – also in yours, Rodisi – Ich hab das (dat/es/et/s'/t') Luise getroffen.

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Posted

My german teacher says that proper names take NO article. So putting in 'die Mama' or 'der Peter' is grammatically wrong. But in the south (especially Bavaria - ahhh, good old Freistaat Bayern) they do it all the time and think it odd without the article (die / der / das). Although, I can't think of a time you would use 'das' and then a person's name...

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Posted

.. I can't think of a time you would use 'das' and then a person's name...

I could imagine some people doing it for kids (das Kind and das Mädchen becoming das Peter or das Anna, for example).

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Posted

Although, I can't think of a time you would use 'das' and then a person's name...

You could use it with a name in the diminutive chen/lein form - das Mariechen, das Peterlein.

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Posted

My german teacher says that proper names take NO article. So putting in 'die Mama' or 'der Peter' is grammatically wrong. But in the south (especially Bavaria - ahhh, good old Freistaat Bayern) they do it all the time and think it odd without the article (die / der / das). Although, I can't think of a time you would use 'das' and then a person's name...

It´s not "odd" persay AFAIK, it´s simply considered as rather impersonal. (I think people in Schwaben, Schweiz & Österreich also use the article pretty much all the time...and lots of people in NRW aswell, when talking about their close friends)

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Posted

I could imagine some people doing it for kids (das Kind and das Mädchen becoming das Peter or das Anna, for example).

Never heard that before, der Peter, die Anna yes, but das never

It's very common to say "die Mama" or "der Papa" when talking to small children, it wouldn#t really be used when talkig to older people.

Very often people will use "die" or "der" in combination with surnames, my husband has a female colleague whose last name is Müller, and very often she will be reffered to as "die Müllerin"

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Posted

Never heard that before, der Peter, die Anna yes, but das never

Me neither. Just suggesting a possible reason for what RainyDays mentioned. :)

Then, there's also the phenomenon in some dialects, namely Rheinfränkisch and Moselfränkisch vernaculars, to use the neutral article with female first names, see discussion here. One can hear in those regions – also in yours, Rodisi – Ich hab das (dat/es/et/s'/t') Luise getroffen.

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Posted

Me neither. Just suggesting a possible reason for what RainyDays mentioned.

Germans and their dialects eh? ;)

actually, I love all the different dialects in Germany, they can be so confusing, but hilariously funny at times

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Posted

Although, I can't think of a time you would use 'das' and then a person's name...

I could imagine some people doing it for kids (das Kind and das Mädchen becoming das Peter or das Anna, for example).

Only females take the neutral article, and it's dialectal or influenced by dialects. I found a "Zwiebelfisch" column on the topic of article + first name: Wenn der Timo mit der Leonie. The author Bastian Sick locates the use of articles preceeding names in the Southern part of Germany and also pins it down as typical Kita speak. :D

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Posted

My German teacher said that articles with names are normally used to indicate close friendship/family relation to a person. So if you refer to someone as "der Peter" this means that you like this person/he is your good friend. I'm in Northern Bavaria.

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Posted

actually, I love all the different dialects in Germany, they can be so confusing, but hilariously funny at times

For the most part I like the different dialects. However since moving to Stuttgart I have come to absolutely hate Schwäbisch. Whenever I hear this awful dialect it just sounds to me like the person is completely drunk and has lost the ability to speak properly.

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Posted

My german teacher says

Your German teacher is a regional purist who refuses to accept that there are regional and dialectical differences.

It´s not "odd" persay AFAIK

You'll understand my unwillingness to take your advice when it comes to languages and their usages. "Per se."

I could imagine some people doing it for kids.

Great. Language lessons based on what foriinjers think should be the case.

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It's very common to say "die Mama" or "der Papa" when talking to small children

Bingo. Or when referring to something from that child's point of view. In the south (esp. Bavaria), articles are often used in conjunction with proper names, usually referring to a person known by both the speaker and listener (a mutual friend, for example, or the one about whom the conversation is or was just about). Informality is often understood but not necessary; if I'm sitting at a table having a beer with some friends and we're talking about Munich politics, I might refer to our mayor as "Der Ude" rather than using his full name or office title.

woof.

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Posted

You'll understand my unwillingness to take your advice when it comes to languages and their usages. "Per se."

Lol, take that stick out of your ass, moron. I´m italian and I know very well what "Per se" means, but most americans will use persay when writing colloquially.

Bingo. Or when referring to something from that child's point of view. In the south (esp. Bavaria), articles are often used in conjunction with proper names, usually referring to a person known by both the speaker and listener (a mutual friend, for example, or the one about whom the conversation is or was just about). Informality is often understood but not necessary; if I'm sitting at a table having a beer with some friends and we're talking about Munich politics, I might refer to our mayor as "Der Ude" rather than using his full name or office title.

So, you actually said exacly the same thing the others said.

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Posted

First time I think about this.

In our family (mixed Northern/Southern German)and I think generally, the usage is as follows:

Talking to my siblings Mama and Papa are personal names, thus no article. "Hast du Mama gesehen?"

Talking to my children, Mama or Papa is a function, not a name, thus with article. "Hast du nicht gehört, was die Mama gesagt hat?"

Talking to strange kids (Kindergarten-age), the article is used as a possesive pronoun. "Suchst du die Mama?" instead of "Suchst du deine Mama?"

The indefinite article is sometimes used in dialect, but especially in the Rhineland, an indefinite personal article (de) is mostly used, often with the dialect form of the name. "De Mam hett jesät..." "De Papp is wäch." For children or young females the indefinite article in Rhineland would be dat. When I was a baby, the neighbour's girl (dat Annelies) would come around and ask "Darf ich dat Chrissi wat verwahre?" ("may I mind little Chris").

Confusing?

Maybe. But who cares?

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Posted

... I know very well what "Per se" means, but most people who don't know any better will, like me, use persay when writing colloquially.

FTFY

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Posted

My dad came from Unterfranken, so I can agree that his side of the family always said "Wo ist der Papa?", "Kommt die Tante Lisa zum Mittagessen?", etc.

My mom came from Niedersachsen (Emsland) and I remember that when they talked about family members or relatives they always said:

"Unser Peter..."

"Unsere Mia...", etc.

If they talked about neighbors, aquaintences, etc., it went like

"Mueller's Gerda..."

"Dehn's Heini..." etc.

But they didn't say "der Papa", "die Tante", etc.

So I guess maybe it is regional.

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Posted

I´m italian and I know very well what "Per se" means, but most americans will use persay when writing colloquially.

No one but morans does that. Morans and obsequious forinjers, but I repeat myself...

So, you actually said exacly the same thing the others said.

I confirmed it. I have a degree in linguistics and nearly 20 years in this country. As this is an open forum any idiot is able to scribble here (I note Italians have little trouble clicking the "Add Reply" button), and therefore qualified responses are generally welcome. People can talk all they want to about what they think electrical standards should be, YL6 and a few others are actually qualified to definitively answer such questions.

woof.

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Posted

In Bavarian (not speaking German with a Bavarian accent, but real Bavarian) you need the article for any possessive form as Bavarian does not have a genitive case and uses a dative construction instead.

Dem Ruabmhofer Luggi sei Klavier is hi. = Ludwig van Beethoven's piano is out of order.

Also, the Bavarian tendency to put the last name, or even house name, before the first name leads to using the definite article to emphasize which Sepp/Luggi/Kare you mean.

Is des da Hausbacher Sepp? - Na, des is eahm sei Onkl, da Karrenbauer Sepp.

Is that Josef Hausbacher? - No, it's his uncle, Josef Karrenbauer.

EDIT: FTFY

"Muellers Gerda..."

"Dehns Heini..." etc.

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Posted

My German family does it all the time. Der Jochen, die Tina, die Oma, die Ur-Oma, die Mutti, der Opa, die Diana, der Christian etc., including all the dogs and cats.

One of my three sisters is called Gretchen, but we don't say das Gretchen, it's always die Gretchen.

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