Fines for dog off leash if you don't speak German

27 posts in this topic

Posted

Hi all

I was walking a friends dog, he wasn't on his leash, though I had it with me. I ran into the ortnungsamt and they stopped me and another dog owner. The other person was German. They let the other person go, after a quick chat, and then fined me 35 euro. When I asked them why only I was fined they didn't reply and just walked away. I have no problem with the fine, I wasn't fully aware of the law but I do have an issue with what seems to be blatant discrimination. Is this usual?

Thanks

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Posted

In Berlin, there is no law demanding to have your dog leashed on a sidewalk etc .

However, in park parks etc you are required to do so.

My question : Where were you with the dog and where was that other person in that moment.

And: What exactly were you fined for? Could it be that the dog did't carry the owner's address etc?

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Posted

I believe it also depends upon what type of dog you have...

Depending upon how seriously pissed off you are with the fine and possible descrimination, you might want to consider writing a letter of complaint to the Ordnungsamt about it...

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Posted

In Berlin, there is no law demanding to have your dog leashed on a sidewalk etc .

Na ja, this seems to cover lots of sidewalk space:

Hundegesetz Berlin

§ 3

Leinenpflicht

(1) Hunde sind

1. in öffentlichen Grün- und Erholungsanlagen,

2. in Waldflächen, die nicht an den Zugangswegen durch besondere Schilder

ausdrücklich als dafür freigegeben gekennzeichnet sind (Hundeauslaufgebiete), und

3. auf Sport- und Campingplätzen sowie in Kleingartenkolonien

an einer höchstens zwei Meter langen Leine zu führen. Die Leine muss so beschaffen sein,

dass der Hund sicher gehalten werden kann. Darüber hinausgehende Vorschriften bleiben

unberührt.

(2) Hunde sind

1. in Treppenhäusern, sonstigen der Hausgemeinschaft zugänglichen Räumen und auf

Zuwegen von Wohnhäusern,

2. in Büro- und Geschäftshäusern, Ladengeschäften, Verwaltungsgebäuden und

anderen öffentlich zugänglichen baulichen Anlagen,

3. bei öffentlichen Versammlungen und Aufzügen, Volksfesten und sonstigen

Veranstaltungen mit Menschenansammlungen,

4. in öffentlichen Verkehrsmitteln, auf Bahnhöfen sowie in und an den dazugehörigen

Gebäuden und Haltepunkten und

5. in Fußgängerzonen sowie auf öffentlichen Straßen und Plätzen mit

Menschenansammlungen

an einer höchstens einen Meter langen Leine zu führen. Absatz 1 Satz 2 und 3 gilt

entsprechend.

In there it also mentions the dog's required id tags. Maybe you got fined for that?

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Posted

So one of them could have walked with the dog on the sidewalk while the other was entering the sidewalk, coming from the park, with his dog. Both without leash. No prob for the first, fine for the second.

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Posted

I was translating with google and let me see if I'm right:

At parks, forests... Open areas = Dog leash must be no longer than 2m?

Shopping malls, stores, elevators ... Closed areas = Dog leash must be no longer than 1m?

So why there's a lot of dogs walking around without leashes?

I thought that was OK.

And, just to know more about pet's laws:

What's the meaning of that sign with a dog using a muzzle? I heard that dog muzzles are mandatory when you're in tram, bahn with your dog...

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Posted

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the feedback. The incident happened in Schlesischer Busch, just as I was entering the park. There are a couple a paths through the park, the other person was on another path, but only 10 meters from me. Both dogs were off the leashes wandering on the grass. For the reason for the fine its says on the ticket I got "Hund ohne Leine". The dog I was walking was a medium sized dog as was the other dog, but from the ticket this as not the issue. The dog also has papers, these weren't mentioned or asked for.

As soon as I got home I wrote an email to the Ordnungsamt at Bezirksamt Treptow-Köpenick, but I guess if they are self regulated I will not get a response and my email will just be ignored. I also wrote a email to the AWO (immigration and integration organization), I dont know who else I could take this up with.

As I said, when I asked them to explain why only I got a fine, there response was to ignore me and walk away, there was 3 of them. You can take from this what you will but I don't think it's how a official officer should act and took it as discrimination.

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Posted

unless you have evidence of discrimination, don't use that word. The rules are dogs on leash, at least it's only a 35 euro fine. Suck it up and keep you've eyes peeled, or follow them rulez

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Posted

When 2 people are stopped for the same offense and only one is penalized, and no explanation given why the law only applies to that person, I would call that discrimination (look it up in dictionary). If you read the other posts you would be aware that my complaint is not about paying the fine.

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Posted

yes, reading your posts, it's also clear you don't know the rules.

The fact the other dog walker knew the rules or had the skills to talk her way out of a fine, does not make the situation unjust or prejudicial treatment against you as a 'foreigner' with limited German skills or lack of knowledge on the rules. Ignorance of the law is never a valid defence.

Unfair, maybe.

Discrimination, no.

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Posted

dude. You seriously need to chill out. You've got everything figured out but know precisely zilch except that you have now got to pay (a rather piddling) ticket.

the other person was on another path, but only 10 meters from me.

10 meters might as well be 10 miles. That is how close your situation comes to being the other person's situation, for all you know.

The dog I was walking was a medium sized dog as was the other dog, but from the ticket this as not the issue.

you seem to be almost perversely hung up on the other dog. What has the other dog got to do with your ticket? Do you believe that the other dog's size, behavior and papers had something to do with getting you a fine?

but I guess if they are self regulated I will not get a response and my email will just be ignored.

Why should the entire organization be corrupt because you're not happy you got a ticket? Does not compute. What is computing is that you've set out to be the victim before you've even begun.

when I asked them to explain why only I got a fine, there response was to ignore me and walk away, there was 3 of them.

EH?? Sorry, your point is that you don't speak German, right?

If they could speak English well enough to explain your issue to you, they wouldn't be Ordnungsbeamters strolling through the park ticketing people for having dogs off the leash in the first place. They'd take their university degrees and get real jobs. Here is something that may shock you: working a shitty government job means someone is even *less* likely to speak English than someone who completed their Abitur and went on to university. For most grownup Germans, proficient English = college education, while college education /= Beamter status.

My own guess is that the worst or most "discriminatory" thing that might have happened was, they're obliged to at least speak to people with their dogs off the line, if for no other reason but to accept their flimsy excuses, but if they can't even communicate with the person, they're still obliged to take some action, *especially* if there are three of them moseying around to keep each other honest.

Really, it's rare that I say this, but you seriously need to get over yourself. There are bigger, badder issues in the world to deal with than whether or not the Ordnungsamt is getting rich fucking over people who can't be bothered speaking the language of the land they live in and splitting €35 tickets 2,692 ways. Hello?

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Posted

I believe it also depends upon what type of dog you have...

The dog I was walking was a medium sized dog as was the other dog, but from the ticket this as not the issue.

you seem to be almost perversely hung up on the other dog. What has the other dog got to do with your ticket? Do you believe that the other dog's size, behavior and papers had something to do with getting you a fine?

I think he bothered to discuss the size of the dog because robinson100 mentioned it depends on the type.

I'm wondering if this dude is related to the dude who don't want to pay the speeding fine from France.

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Posted

This is why I'm a cat person...

post-133917-13525922869123.jpg

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Posted

Having sent the information to the AWO they have agreed it was a case of discrimination and they suggest I now take the issue to the ADNB (Counseling Center

for Equal Treatment - against Discrimination), http://www.adnb.de/?id_menu=4&id_submenu=48.

I hope this information is of use to someone who finds themselves in a similar situation.

I suggest to all those trolls who gave useless feedback to consider making better use of your time. If you've nothing worth while to say, just say nothing.

@dessa_dangerous, they could speak English.

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Posted

The only thing that will help people in similar situations is to advise them to keep their damned dogs on leashes, like they're supposed to. You can talk to AWO, ADNB, or LMAA until you're blue in the face, but your only chance of getting the fine waived is to win in court. Which is highly unlikely.

Do you really have so much free time on your hands that you find it worthwhile to devote all that time and effort to evading a €35 fine? Wait a minute - you're a non-German-speaking "creative" in Berlin. Of course you have the time. Carry on then.

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Posted

Having sent the information to the AWO they have agreed it was a case of discrimination

They agreed it was -- without having heard anything from the other side? Wow. Keep us posted.

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Posted

Have you any sense of history or even proportion? This isn't 1935 all over again.

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Posted

they could speak English.

may I ask how you deduced that people who, by your account, refused to converse with you and did not speak to you aside from whatever words--if any--were necessary to hand you your ticket, could "speak English"? I don't know how many other languages you speak (only that German is not one of them) but there is a vast difference between being able to count to a hundred and say a few phrases in a language, and actually being able to speak a language. Moreover, in all my years working with Germans, I have not yet met one who could speak English but refused to do so on the grounds that they hate English speakers (even when they did). More often, I can recall people whose English wasn't so good but did as best they could, even if it was through clenched teeth.

Therefore I find it hard to believe that they refused to speak their super competent English at you out of spite and rage, although: stranger things have happened. What I flat-out do not believe is that the Ordnungsamt is part of a citywide conspiracy to rob resident tourists of their already scarce Euros for infractions for which they hand out lolly pops and smiles to German-speaking people.

That you also concluded that the other person was German shows how many conclusions you're chomping at the bit to jump to--just because a person speaks German doesn't mean they are German, especially not at 10 meters, which is also quite a distance from which to read the print on someone's passport. This city is full to bursting with immigrants (white ones too!) who actually bothered to learn to speak reasonable German. (Think Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, the Dutch, Danes, Finns and Swedes, who often speak two or more languages apart from their native tongues, and are visually virtually indistinguishable from Germans.) It's only the laziest people who assume that anyone who has a decent command of the language must have been born here, that learning it is so hard that non-natives are basically forced to just shrug their shoulders and walk around in a perpetual bubble of ignorance.

cannot shake my head hard enough.

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Posted

Addendum: there is also something known as Amtssprache:

Die Amtssprache ist die Sprache der Ämter, sowohl untereinander als auch mit den Bürgern. In der Amtssprache werden Verwaltungsakte und Normen verfasst, Dokumente archiviert, Auskünfte an Bürger erteilt, Verhandlungen geführt und protokolliert. In ihr müssen auch Schriftsätze vor Gericht und Anträge eingereicht werden.

Die Amtssprache im engeren Sinn ist die Sprache, in der Behörden und Regierungen kommunizieren.

my shitty translation: The Amtssprache [or Official Language] is the language of officials and authorities, with one another as well as with laypeople. Administrative actions and norms are written in it, documents are archived in it, information is given to citizens in it, negotiations are handled and recorded in it. Legal documents and statements given before a court of law must also use it.

The Amtssprache is, in a narrower sense, the language in which authorities and governments communicate.

In other words, not only are they not obligated to speak to you in your language, they may also be breaking their own protocol by doing so. So, even if they did speak really proficient English, they may have not spoken enough to cover their proverbial asses while explaining your issue to you.

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Posted

He doesn't understand they aren't obliged to speak to him in English or any other language other than German since they were Germans.

The other thing he doesn't seem to get is life is not fair and the more you try to make it be fair the more frustrated you may become.

This is Germany and if you're breaking the rules and get caught you're going to have to pay, it's just that simple.

Then he has the audacity to talk about people posting on this thread should be making better use of their time. :lol:

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Posted

Addendum: there is also something known as Amtssprache:

my shitty translation: The Amtssprache [or Official Language] is the language of officials and authorities, with one another as well as with laypeople. Administrative actions and norms are written in it, documents are archived in it, information is given to citizens in it, negotiations are handled and recorded in it. Legal documents and statements given before a court of law must also use it.

The Amtssprache is, in a narrower sense, the language in which authorities and governments communicate.

In other words, not only are they not obligated to speak to you in your language, they may also be breaking their own protocol by doing so. So, even if they did speak really proficient English, they may have not spoken enough to cover their proverbial asses while explaining your issue to you.

Even if they speak near perfect English, they aren't supposed to speak to you in any language other than German. A friend of mine works at a local Burgerbüro and speaks nearly flawless English. She got yelled at by her boss because he overheard her speaking English with an unfortunate Japanese girl that didn't really understand much German and didn't have a translator with her. Apparently, if they mistranslate something, they can be sued for it.

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Posted

I don't think the OP is trying to get out of the fine, just that he's angry/frustrated/taking-it-very-personally that someone else did the same thing in the same place at the same time without incurring the same outcome.

I don't know what kind of outlay in time, money or just plain hassle it's going to take to proceed with any complaint and it may well not be worth it. But as the OP is pretty het up about this, it sounds like it's worth it to him. I'll be interested to read the outcome of this.

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Posted

What the OP calls a "fine" is in Germany an " Ordnungswidrigkeit", a minor offence.. The police, or here the municipal Ordnungsamt employees, can speak out a verbal "Verwarnung", warning ,only or fine you from € 5.- to € 35.- . And it's up to them to decide who gets a verbal warning only and who gets a fine to pay.

So I guess in his case both got a Verwarnung/warning, no discrimination so far, one has to pay , one not. And since the police is free to decide how to proceed there is no legal problem , more a felt injustice.

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Posted

...regardless of who could or could not speak English/German, whether the dog should have been leashed or not...If I had experienced the same thing; that I was being fined and the other not...at the same time, for the same offense, by the same persons... I would be majoraly pissed as well!

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Posted

I just cannot imagine anything more juvenile. Where are we, the elementary school playground? The OP is a fully grown man, pushing 40 in a couple years. "But teacher! He did it tooooooooooo!" Not that our playground monitors wanted to hear anything about it, indeed, they wouldn't even listen to it--they would just say, "oh hush, go on now," and that was the end of it, and that was in a place where we ALL spoke the same language.

However since no one was there to hear what the other child (not older than 9 or 10 years I hope) and his off-leash dog said to the teacher, we'll never know if the other kid had a note or a special allowance or slipped the teacher a twenty or what.

Seriously, worry about your own problems. The only person I'd have been pissed at, majoraly [sic] or less so, would have been myself, for not speaking enough German to run after the other dog owner and ask what sort of tricks they had up their sleeves. So I could use them for next time.

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